WACO, Texas - A survivor of the government's 1993 raid on the Branch Davidian complex testified Monday about a chaotic scene as fire enveloped the sect's compound.
''I could hear rushing, screaming, crying, people praying,'' Marjorie Thomas said. ''You could hear the flames really roaring, things popping. It was noisy.''
Thomas jumped from a window and was one of nine cult members who survived the end of the 51-day standoff in 1993, although she suffered third-degree burns over half of her body. Eighty others died.
Branch Davidian survivors and family members are seeking $675 million in damages from the government. Thomas' testimony came at the start of the trial's second week.
The soft-spoken woman, who now lives in Great Britain, also testified that sect members never planned to start a fire or commit suicide.
But during cross-examination, U.S. Attorney Michael Bradford pointed out that in her 1993 deposition Thomas recalled that sect leader David Koresh talked more than once about suicide plans. The 1993 deposition was used in the 1994 criminal trial of five Davidians, who were convicted of voluntary manslaughter in the deaths of four federal agents.
Jurors last week relived the deadly Feb. 28, 1993, raid - via a taped 911 call - that started the standoff at the group's compound. Testimony also touched on the April 19, 1993, fire's origins and the absence of firefighting equipment at the scene.
Thomas testified Monday that she remembered seeing an approaching helicopter and someone leaning out and firing a gun Feb. 28 as federal agents tried to serve search and arrest warrants on Koresh.
''I could see the gun from the helicopter and when it fired, the bullet came through the other window in the room, not the window I was looking out of. We all got down on the floor,'' she said. ''By this time some more of the bullets were coming through the sheet rock and going across the room.''
Under cross-examination, she told Bradford that she was not sure if the bullet actually came from the helicopter.
But in her 1993 deposition, Thomas said she could not tell if the bullets that hit the window of her room came from the helicopter or somewhere else.
Bradford also referred to her 1993 interview with the Texas Rangers, where she said some male Davidians bragged about shooting agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
But Monday, Thomas said she could not remember making such statements.
She remembered tanks ramming into the building on the final day of the siege, lifting the roof off the building. ''With the building being made of sheet-rock, it didn't take long for it to give in,'' she said.
Thomas described the scene just before her escape as ''black and dark.''
''I could feel the jacket I was wearing melting, and I was finding it difficult to move myself,'' she said. ''I thought it's either I live or die. I put my hand on my head and leaned on the window, and I was out of the building.''
Earlier in the day, U.S. District Judge Walter Smith said a second juror had been excused because of illness, bringing the remaining pool to five. Another juror was excused last week for personal reasons.
Among other things, plaintiffs contend government agents fired indiscriminately during the raid; violated a plan approved by Attorney General Janet Reno when they punched holes into the building during the tear-gassing operation; contributed to or caused at least some of the three blazes that ultimately engulfed the compound; and failed to have firefighting equipment at the scene if a fire broke out.
The jury will act only as an advisory panel to Smith, who will deliver the verdict. Separately, Smith will consider the question of whether federal agents shot at Davidians during the siege's fiery end.
WACO - The cause of the fatal blaze at Mount Carmel cannot presently be known, one of the nation's leading fire investigators told the jury hearing the Davidian wrongful death suit Monday.
Government experts long have argued that Mount Carmel residents ignited three separate fires April 19, 1993. But Patrick Kennedy of Chicago, head of John Kennedy and Associates, the nation's oldest fire investigation firm, told the jury it should "not draw a conclusion of any kind" from the official report on the fire.
"The government's fire investigation was inadequate," he charged.
Using computer-generated drawings and fire investigation manuals he helped compile, Kennedy led the court through the architecture of Mount Carmel, an explanation of fire investigation procedures and an exposition on theories of the fire.
At several points, he said, government investigators failed to observe accepted procedure and ignored evidence contrary to their conclusion that the fire was arson.
Among overlooked items he cited were more than dozen propane cylinders used for heating and cooking.
"Many of these cylinders were crushed," he noted, perhaps by the tanks FBI agents drove into the building.
He said the official report on the fire did not mention the propane tanks. Also, he said, government investigators undercounted the number of lanterns found in the ruins.
Government attorneys objected to Kennedy's certification as an expert in the case, and most observers were surprised Judge Walter Smith Jr. allowed Kennedy to range so widely over his subject.
But by an agreement between lead attorneys for both the plaintiffs and the government, Kennedy was not allowed to testify about the possible effect on the fire of methylene chloride, a component of the tear gas used at Mount Carmel.
Kennedy's testimony followed a video deposition by federal prisoner Graeme Craddock, one of the eight Davidians convicted in a 1994 criminal trial in San Antonio.
During the deposition, Craddock three times recounted a scene in which he heard shouts referring to fire, just minutes before Mount Carmel was consumed by flames.
Craddock testified that as he stood in the building's chapel, he saw another male pouring a fuel onto the floor. He heard a Davidian who died in the fire, Pablo Cohen, shout: "Wait! Wait! Don't pour it inside. Pour it outside."
A few minutes later, he heard another Davidian, Mark Wendell, yell: "The building is on fire!"
Wendell repeated the call about two minutes later, Craddock said, and then yelled, "Light the fire!"
Craddock said did not see anyone light any fires and left the building upon hearing the last call.
Testimony Monday morning came from a woman who narrowly escaped death in the blaze.
The witness, Marjorie Thomas, 30 at the time of the fire, also recounted the onset of the Feb. 28 federal raid on Mount Carmel.
Although her testimony lasted more than two hours, Thomas spent more than half of it telling the court she did not remember - nor did she deny - statements she had made for a video deposition the prosecution introduced in the 1994 Davidian criminal trial in San Antonio.
Thomas said that on the morning of Feb. 28, she joined two other Davidian women at a third-floor window as two helicopters approached.
The door to one of the helicopters was open, and a figure was leaning outside, she said, when bullets struck a window and an adjacent wall. The women took cover on the floor, she said.
On April 19, Thomas said, she was on the end of the building that was last to be engulfed by fire. She and her two companions became aware of the blaze, she said, when they noticed the floors and atmosphere had gotten hot. Through a gap in the flooring, they saw flames below.
Scurrying down a smoke-filled hallway, she said: "I saw a little flicker of light." Entering the room where the light originated, she noticed that "part of the window was gone. I put my hand on my head and leaned out of the window." She fell to the ground.
When she landed, she said, she found she could not move her legs and that her clothes were smoldering.
Thomas suffered third-degree burns over most of her body and today walks with a cane.
Thomas told the jury she was heavily sedated in 1993 when she was taken from her room on the burn unit at Parkland Hospital in Dallas to be deposed for the 1994 criminal trial.
During cross-examination by lead government attorney Michael Bradford, she denied recalling deposition statements she made, but she also denied those statements were false.
In that 1993 deposition, she told San Antonio Justice Department attorney Ray Jahn, lead prosecutor in the criminal trial, that David Koresh had taught his followers: "If you can't kill for God, you can't die for God."
She also told Jahn that on March 2, when many believers thought Koresh was dying from his wounds, she and a handful of others vowed that, "If David died, we were to end our lives."
WACO – A survivor of the government's raid on the Branch Davidian complex testified Monday about a chaotic scene as fire enveloped the compound.
"I could hear rushing, screaming, crying, people praying,'' Marjorie Thomas said. "You could hear the flames really roaring, things popping. It was noisy.''
Thomas jumped from a window and was one of nine sect members who survived the last day of the 51-day standoff in 1993, although she suffered third-degree burns over half of her body. Eighty other Davidians died.
Branch Davidian survivors and family members are seeking $675 million in damages from the government. Thomas' testimony came at the start of the trial's second week.
The soft-spoken woman, who now lives in Great Britain, testified that sect members never planned to start a fire or commit suicide.
But during cross examination, U.S. Attorney Michael Bradford pointed out that in her 1993 deposition Thomas recalled that sect leader David Koresh talked more than once about suicide plans. The 1993 deposition was used in the 1994 criminal trial of five Davidians, who were convicted of voluntary manslaughter in the deaths of four federal agents.
Jurors last week heard a taped 911 call about the deadly 1993 raid that started the standoff at the group's compound. Testimony also touched on the fire's origins and the absence of firefighting equipment at the scene.
Thomas testified Monday that she remembered seeing an approaching helicopter and someone leaning out and firing a gun on Feb. 28, 1993, the day federal agents tried to serve search and arrest warrants on Koresh.
"I could see the gun from the helicopter and when it fired, the bullet came through the other window in the room, not the window I was looking out of. We all got down on the floor,'' she said. "By this time some more of the bullets were coming through the sheet rock and going across the room.''
Under cross-examination, she told Bradford that she was not sure if the bullet actually came from the helicopter. In her 1993 deposition, Thomas had said she could not tell if the bullets that hit the window of her room came from the helicopter or somewhere else.
Bradford also referred to her 1993 interview with the Texas Rangers, in which she said some male Davidians bragged about shooting agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Monday, Thomas said she could not remember making such statements.
Thomas, 30 at the time of the raid, described the scene during the fire as "black and dark.''
"I could feel the jacket I was wearing melting, and I was finding it difficult to move myself,'' she said. "I thought, 'It's either I live or die.' I put my hand on my head and leaned on the window, and I was out of the building.''
Earlier Monday, U.S. District Judge Walter Smith said a juror had been excused because of illness, bringing the remaining pool to five. Another juror was excused last week for personal reasons.
Among other things, plaintiffs contend that government agents fired indiscriminately during the raid; violated a plan approved by Attorney General Janet Reno when they punched holes into the building to spray tear gas inside; contributed to or caused at least some of the three fires that engulfed the compound; and failed to have firefighting equipment at the scene.
The jury will act only as an advisory panel to Smith, who will deliver the verdict. Separately, Smith will consider the question of whether federal agents shot at Davidians during the siege's fiery end.
WACO, Texas (AP) - As flames raced through the Branch Davidians' wooden complex on the final day of the sect's 51-day standoff with the government, nine people found escape routes and survived.
Sect member Marjorie Thomas jumped from a window in the rickety building to safety. She lived, but suffered third-degree burns over half of her body. Some 80 others died.
Thomas is expected to testify this week when the $675 million trial that pits Branch Davidian survivors and family members against the government resumes.
Jurors last week relived the deadly 1993 raid - via a taped 911 call - that started the standoff at the group's compound. Testimony also touched on the fire's origins and the absence of firefighting equipment at the scene.
Plaintiffs' lead counsel Michael Caddell said he expects to finish presenting his case for roughly 50 estates by midweek.
``We've got a lot of cleaning up to do,'' Caddell said Sunday. ``We've put in a lot of very strong evidence for us. We'll be reinforcing some of those points.''
U.S. District Judge Walter Smith on Friday imposed a 40-hour time limit on lawyers for both sides. The judge noted that Caddell already had logged more than half the plaintiffs' time.
Plaintiffs' attorneys Ramsey Clark and Jim Brannon still have not presented their cases. Clark represents several surviving Davidians and Brannon represents the estates of three children.
FBI agents testified during the first week of the case that the tear-gassing operation designed to end the standoff did not include instructions for tanks to smash holes in the walls of the building. They said they were surprised when they later saw tanks penetrating the building.
But Attorney General Janet Reno, in a videotaped deposition shown Friday, said federal agents on the scene had the discretion to do what needed to be done to remove sect members and insert tear gas.
The ordeal began on Feb. 28, 1993, when federal agents raided the compound in an attempt to serve search and arrest warrants for sect leader David Koresh, who died on the final day, April 19.
Among other things, plaintiffs contend government agents fired indiscriminately during the raid; violated a Reno-approved plan when they punched holes into the building during the tear-gassing operation; contributed to or caused at least some of the three blazes that ultimately engulfed the compound; and failed to have firefighting equipment at the scene if a fire broke out.
Government lawyers in a brief Friday argued that the demolition and firefighting equipment issues fall under the discretionary function privilege and should be dismissed. Smith hasn't ruled on the request.
The privilege shields federal agencies from liability in their decisions, even if its agents' actions prove negligent. It is designed to give federal officials the ability to make judgment calls without the fear of being sued.
The jury will act only as an advisory panel to Smith, who will deliver the verdict. Separately, Smith will consider the question of whether federal agents shot at Davidians during the siege's fiery end.
WACO, TEXAS - If the trial of the Branch Davidians' wrongful death suit were a high stakes poker game, government defense lawyers would have the benefit of a wild card in their hand.
The wild card is a provision in federal law that bars courts from considering damage claims against federal officers for carrying out discretionary decisions, even if those decisions turn out to be wrong. Because of that prohibition, a lot of the information about how the FBI and Justice Department dealt with the Davidians has been kept out of court.
The trial, which began a week ago, resumes today before U.S. District Court Judge Walter Smith Jr. and a jury of four women and two men. Davidian lawyers will call an expert witness to give an opinion about the fires that destroyed the sect's complex, killing most of the 80 victims. They will wind up their case with appearances by two women who managed to escape. One of them, Misty Dawn Ferguson, suffered burns on her hands that were so severe she lost her fingers.
"It will be an emotional moment when she testifies," said Mike Caddell, the lead lawyer for the Davidians. That testimony is expected Tuesday.
The Davidians' lawyers will also file a motion with Smith to counter the government's attempts to block consideration of two of the main allegations in the case:
* That the government was negligent by allowing converted tanks to ram into the Davidians' complex.
* That the government was negligent for not having firefighting equipment on the scene.
The government contends the FBI's on-scene commanders had discretion over how to carry out a tank and tear gas plan that was supposed to force the Davidians out of their complex after a 51-day siege. Government lawyers filed a motion Friday saying the two claims involved the "permissible exercise of policy judgment" and should be dismissed.
The motion was based on the discretionary exception contained in federal law. The motion said the law's protection for government employees extends to decisions made by administrators in drawing up plans.
The government has been playing the discretion function card throughout these proceedings. Last July, Smith ruled that the use of tear gas to evict the Davidians could not be challenged because of the exception.
More recently, the government managed to block from the court's consideration the fact that FBI negotiators had warned their commanders before the tank attack that the Davidians seemed paranoid and would react violently if confronted with tanks. The negotiators predicted, accurately as it turned out, that lives would be lost and the FBI would be blamed.
Mike Bradford, a U.S. attorney helping defend the government, said the idea behind the discretionary exception was to help make it easier for federal employees to make tough decisions without the fear of winding up in court.
"They should be able to make a decision and not find themselves being sued for it seven years later even if they did something wrong, and we don't admit they did do something wrong here," Bradford said.
Caddell said that while the on-scene commanders had discretion, it was limited by a written eviction plan that had been approved by Attorney General Janet Reno. That plan was supposed to put gradual pressure on the Davidians by gassing part of their complex.
Converted tanks - needed to protect agents from the Davidians' heavy weapons fire - were to pump tear gas through the windows. The plan also required the commanders to have adequate emergency equipment standing by.
Earlier drafts of the plan called for creating openings in the building and demolishing it. The final plan contained no provision for creating openings and did not recommend tearing it down until the gassing had gone on for 48 hours.
Responsibility for implementing the plan on April 19, 1993, fell to Jeff Jamar, the special agent in charge of the FBI's San Antonio office, and Dick Rogers, the head of the agency's hostage rescue team.
About five hours into the gas attack, FBI tank drivers began plowing into the building. A tank smashed into the front to get to a concrete room where Davidians were hiding. In the back, a tank rammed so deeply into the complex that the gym roof collapsed. Later, the FBI attempted to give medals to the tank drivers for "the dismantling of the gym," something that was not part of Reno's plan.
Caddell believes that while Reno had discretion in developing the plan, Jamar and Rogers did not have discretion in carrying it out, barring an emergency.
Whether or not the court considers these issues, it appears doubtful that they will be part of special Waco counsel John Danforth's investigation. When Reno appointed Danforth last fall, he said he was looking at allegations of bad acts, not bad judgment. Caddell said that leaves the issues up to Congress, which has already held two hearings on Waco and is conducting another investigation.
The FBI made changes based on events at Waco. For example, supervision of its hostage rescue team was reorganized to require closer cooperation between tactical people and negotiators in confrontational situations.
Caddell said he did not plan to call either Jamar or Rogers as witnesses, although the government may do so once its case begins. Still to present testimony on the Davidians' side is former Attorney General Ramsey Clark.
Smith, who keeps his court to a tight time schedule, has limited the Davidians and the government to 40 hours each. Caddell said the plaintiffs planned to wrap up their case by the middle of the week.
WACO – Day after day, Branch Davidian Sheila Martin sat quietly in the back of a federal courtroom last week, reliving the tragic events that brought her here.
It was the beginning of the long-awaited trial in the sect's wrongful-death lawsuit. She has been joined in court by other Branch Davidians and relatives of the dead, some who say they came for truth and justice.
Her daily presence in court has been to show that "this is very important to us and to the families that are not with us," she said.
The sect argues that government agents used excessive force in their initial 1993 raid on the group's rural compound and also helped cause the tragic ending of the ensuing 51-day standoff. But the government asserts that its agents acted properly and should bear no responsibility for the final fire that consumed the sect's home with more than 80 Branch Davidians inside.
For Mrs. Martin, like other Branch Davidians, the days in court haven't been easy.
"I guess little by little each day it gets more difficult," Mrs. Martin said a day after jurors were allowed to hear a 911 tape of her husband, Wayne Martin, screaming for federal agents to "back off" from the compound during the chaotic Feb. 28 raid at Mount Carmel.
She said it was rough to hear the recording, adding that her husband only wanted to help protect the women and children in the compound. He and their four children died in the fire that ended the standoff.
Mrs. Martin said she thinks of her husband while in court, often imagining how he would have handled the case. Mr. Martin was a Harvard-educated lawyer who had his law office at Mount Carmel.
Branch Davidians who testified last week were questioned closely by government attorneys on the teachings of leader David Koresh. Most disputed the government's claim that he preached regularly about guns and making war on the government.
Asked about government lawyers' assertions that Mr. Koresh taught followers that they had to "kill for God," Branch Davidian Anetta Richards said in videotaped testimony, "He never talked about that, God telling us to kill someone."
But she acknowledged that Mr. Koresh was considered "a messenger" who "spoke for God." She added that he was offering God's warnings in his preaching, which often focused on obscure Old Testament prophecies of "chariots and horses and weapons of war."
"He [God] would send his messengers to warn his people," she said. "God always gives messages to his people before he destroys them."
Another sect member, Rita Riddle, sat with others in court before she testified. She said she came out of the siege before it was over to tell her side of the story. Her daughter, Misty Ferguson, is expected to testify later in the trial. Ms. Ferguson escaped during the fire but sustained severe burns to her hands and face.
Ms. Riddle said that she was never taught to fire a gun and never heard Mr. Koresh teach about guns in Bible studies. She said the weapons she vaguely knew were in the building were simply an "interest" and a "moneymaker" for a few people who had them to buy and sell at gun shows.
Lawyers for the sect conceded during opening minutes of the trial that more than 300 weapons – including assault rifles, pistols, silencers, two 50-caliber rifles and 48 illegally converted machine guns – were found in the compound rubble after it burned. Along with the guns were hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition, some of it armor-piercing bullets, and a large array of paramilitary clothing and gear.
Asked if she ever entered into a suicide pact with others at Mount Carmel, which government lawyers have said was a cause of the final fire, Ms. Riddle smiled and said no.
"There were people from all over the world there: different personalities, different families, different interests, different likes and dislikes. We were all there for one purpose, and that was the Bible studies," she said. Mr. Koresh, who led most of the Bible studies, met Sherry Burgo's father, Floyd Houtman, during a trip to Massachusetts. Mr. Houtman also died in the fire.
Ms. Burgo watched the fiery siege unfold on television seven years ago, regretting that she hadn't visited her father at Mount Carmel.
"I miss him a whole lot. ... Him and I were the best of friends," Ms. Burgo said. "It brings back a lot of emotional memories."
The trial has also afforded some Branch Davidians the chance to see old friends with whom they had lost contact after the fire.
Clive Doyle, who now holds Bible studies at Mount Carmel and survived the fire, said it was good to see 16-year-old Jaunessa Wendel and 18-year-old Natalie Nobrega. Both girls lived with their parents at the compound. Ms. Wendel's parents and Ms. Nobrega's mother died in the Mount Carmel tragedy.
"There were tears in my eyes in the courtroom the other day when I heard the kids testify - Jaunessa and Natalie," Mr. Doyle said.
Ms. Wendel, 8 at the time of the raid, testified that her mother was fixing her hair in an upstairs bedroom when the gunfire erupted. Her mother hurried her and three siblings into a hallway and returned to the bedroom.
She never emerged alive. Four agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and six Branch Davidians died during the shootout.
Ms. Wendel conceded under government questioning that she told authorities in 1993 that her mother fired a gun after the gunbattle began. But she now insists that story was wrong, saying she was scared and confused when she made that statement and that she was only telling a Texas Ranger what she thought he wanted to hear.
The teenager said that before she left the compound during the standoff, she went back into her room to collect belongings and saw her mother's body on a bed covered with a blanket. Her father later died in the fire.
Ms. Nobrega, who turned 11 on March 2 when she left the compound during the siege, said she remembered her mother kissing her "between every sentence" as they said their goodbyes. Her mother also died in the fire.
"This is just not, shall we say, a constructed play on the jury to get their sympathy," Mr. Doyle said. "These things actually happened."
At his home at Mount Carmel recently, Mr. Doyle said he has learned to live with the tragedy that took the life of his 18-year-old daughter, Shari Doyle.. She spent most of the siege with her father in the chapel area.
"It wasn't a horrible place," he said of the compound. "It was home."
He said he wants more than a victory for plaintiffs in the suit: He wants a full airing of what he and other Mount Carmel residents saw and heard in 1993. He disputes the government assertion that the Branch Davidians fired the first shots at the beginning of the siege and he says that Branch Davidians did not set fire to the compound.
But Mr. Doyle also said he is not going into court with his "head in the clouds" about the prospect of vindication.
"From what I know of Judge [Walter] Smith – how he operates, what he's done in the past – I would be very, very surprised if we got justice or a favorable settlement," he said. "That does not mean that it can't happen, because I believe in miracles."
Waco, FBI and the Branch Davidians: Updates
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